Incineroar Adjustments + Air Alolan Whip Variants

[ryn9999]

Changelog

Overall aim is to give some shine to Incin's close quarter moves to enable safer pressure when getting in, while reducing low percent frame advantage and the power of certain specials. Also adds a new tool in air side special variants.

General

- [-] Friction: 0.8 -> 0.83
- [-] Max Run Speed: 1.45 -> 1.43
+ [+] Ground to Air Multiplier: 0.96 -> 0.98
+ [+] Jump Height: 31.6 -> 32.3

Jab 1

+ [+] Startup: F5 -> F4

Jab 3

! [R] Angle: 361 -> 35
+ [+] BKB: 40 -> 66
~ [/] KBG: 88 -> 50
# Better at securing knockdowns to give more of a niche over jab-tilt cancels

Forward Tilt

- [-] Angle: 31 -> 32
- [-] BKB: 55/54 -> 50/50
~ [/] KBG: 82/88 -> 83/88
+ [+] FAF: F37 -> F34
# Trades some kill power for safety (-14 on shield at the tipper)

Up Tilt

- [-] BKB: 90 -> 75
~ [/] KBG: 55 -> 68
# Less advantage at low to mid percent

Down Tilt

+ [+] Damage: 9.0% -> 10.0%
- [-] BKB: 90 -> 85
+ [+] FAF: F29 -> F28
# -13 on shield

Neutral Air

+ [+] Landing Lag: 9F -> 8F

Early Hit
+ [+] Damage: 10.0% -> 12.0%
~ [=] BKB: 37 -> 34
~ [=] KBG: 100 -> 90

Late Hit
~ [/] KBG: 100 -> 90

# Damage and shield safety felt low for this move, optimal landing will now allow jab to beat grab with two frames of leniency (0 on shield)

Forward Air

Early Hit
- [-] Hitbox Size: 4.5/4.5/5.5 - > 4.5/4.5/5.0
- [-] BKB: 55/55/30 -> 35/35/30
~ [/] KBG: 73/73/101 -> 91/91/101

Late Hit
- [-] Angle: 35 -> 38
~ [/] BKB: 36 -> 38
! [R] KBG: 90 -> 70
# Early sourspot's BKB gave it more advantage than sweetspot at low percents. Late hit no longer kills outright and instead functions as a combo extender on di in and edgeguard tool

Up Air

- [-] BKB: 58 -> 50
~ [/] KBG: 79 -> 88
# Less advantage at low to mid percent

Alolan Whip (Side Special)

! [R] Angle variants are now usable in the air

Air High Grab
~ Hitbox Size: 5.5u (7.0u grounded)

Air Low Grab
~ Hitbox Size: 3.5u (4.0u grounded)
# Like the grounded versions air high grab only grabs aerials opponents, air low grab only grabs grounded opponents

Cross Chop (Up Special)

Bound
- [-] No longer refreshes jump
+ [+] Damage: 10.8%/5.5% -> 11.0%/5.5%
- [-] BKB: 89/85 -> 80/75
~ [=] KBG: 72/80 -> 77/90

Revenge (Down Special)

- [-] Revenge Added Damage Dealt Multiplier: 0.075 -> 0.05
- [-] Revenge Max Damage Dealt Multiplier: 5.0 -> 3.5

[SkewedAskew]

• Needs hitbox comparisons for bair and images for aerial Alolan Whip variants
• The following should be reverted:
  • Forward tilt vfx
  • Forward air duration
  • Revenge up throw (entire)

[ryn9999]

Will do, o7

[SuddyN]

This is just my personal opinion because I'm not in any hdr-related channels right now, but I saw this PR by chance.

Stats

seems like you're leaning in a bit to his slower attributes. slower run speed is not that big of a deal but higher friction will be felt in several different ways which I don't find necessary

Jabs

You can probably remove the restriction that incin cannot continue his regular jab sequence on whiff. This would do enough to improve his jab pressure such that it probably wouldnt be necessary to buff Jab1 startup.

FTilt

FAF buff doesn't seem necessary. I think it's more interesting as a risky high knockback move than a safe pressure button. DTilt is better for that kind of pressure anyways.

FAir

9F of activity is probably too much. Also, I wouldnt be too concerned about sourspots sometimes being better at low% than sweetspots (this is relatively common), not that I'm opposed to changing that in this instance.

Alolan Whip

Aerial angled variants open the door to some weird interactions at the ledge and near platforms I would bet, which probably won't behave as intended. It's cool, but I don't think it's necessary and might even be unhealthy? Worth playtesting, but I am nervous about it

Cross Chop

Sucks to take away DJ refresh (again). Probably limit to once per airtime since it's an actionable up special thing. In fact, it should probably not be actionable after the first time? Follow the standards set by other actionable up specials and it will probably not be a problem.

Revenge

On the surface this makes me sad, but Revenge is a little silly. I would personally pursue other avenues first, like nerfing the framedata. Is the revenge buff cleared when an opponent parries his attack?

[SkewedAskew]

FAir
9F of activity is probably too much

I requested this to be reverted already

Alolan Whip

I am looking into it on my end

Cross Chop
It should probably not be actionable after the first time

I agree with this

Revenge
Is the revenge buff cleared when an opponent parries his attack?

It is not

[ryn9999]

Thanks for the feedback Suddy.

seems like you're leaning in a bit to his slower attributes. slower run speed is not that big of a deal but higher friction will be felt in several different ways which I don't find necessary

That's fair, I was willing to accept a nerf to wavedrop and OOS to accentuate his archetype but could've gone too far.

You can probably remove the restriction that incin cannot continue his regular jab sequence on whiff. This would do enough to improve his jab pressure such that it probably wouldnt be necessary to buff Jab1 startup.

I like this idea a lot and think I prefer it, even though the startup buff was meant to work in tandem with nair's improved shield safety.

FAF buff doesn't seem necessary. I think it's more interesting as a risky high knockback move than a safe pressure button. DTilt is better for that kind of pressure anyways.

I basically compared his ftilt to every other one in the game and found it most like Ganondorf's, who is a very similar character both in terms of attributes and certain normals. I thought I'd give Incin's more of an edge over Ganon's other than knockback since it has both worse startup (F12 vs. F9) and activity (3F vs. 4F). I'd be cool with walking the FAF back a frame to 35 but I personally would like Incin to be able to use this button safely a bit more often.

Sucks to take away DJ refresh (again). Probably limit to once per airtime since it's an actionable up special thing. In fact, it should probably not be actionable after the first time? Follow the standards set by other actionable up specials and it will probably not be a problem.

Agreed.

On the surface this makes me sad, but Revenge is a little silly. I would personally pursue other avenues first, like nerfing the framedata. Is the revenge buff cleared when an opponent parries his attack?

I really do think Revenge boosted moves do an unconscionable amount of damage but I'd be down to look into alternatives to rein it in.